Twin Cities Carry Forum Archive :: View topic - Time to start paying taxes on health insurance premiums?

aypstony wrote:

IMHO, the following steps are necessary to get "everyone" covered for health insurance.

1) It should be state law that requires everyone to buy health insurance. Just like it is required to have automobile insurance. Violators should be fined and/or put in jail.
2) Healthcare premiums should be based on risks, just like auto insurance. If you participate in risky health behavior(ie smoke, overweight..so on) your premiums should be higher than others. Exclude genetics based risk...since this is a slippery slope.
3) We should have 2 major choices of health plans. 1) a comprehensive plan(covers health maintenance visits). 2) minimum coverage(covers only major health events) health maintenance visits are out of pocket.
4) Some sort of committee(with representatives from government, doctors, and insurance companies) should set a pricing standard for basic medical services. For example, a doctor's visit should not cost $200 at one clinic and $400 at another clinic. FYI, I am a firm believer in free market practices....so this one is a tough sell.
5) People should be able to purchase Health plans from any company across the US.

Just some ideas.....feel free to blast them

princewally wrote:

#1. There should be a law against people saying 'there should be a law'. That's people thinking they know how to run the lives of other people, which is terribly offensive to any freedom-loving person.
#4. A government committee, or even a government sponsored committee deciding pricing is polar opposite of "free market". Which mutually exclusive idea am I supposed to blast? Now, the pricing standard: If a clinic does all of their labwork on site, to speed the process, I'm not going to be allowed to pay extra for the convenience? A hospital that invests in state-of-the-art equipment won't be allowed to recoup the costs? Forced pricing standards will be the death of medical innovation.
#5. Absolutely, get the government restrictions out of the equation.

aypstony wrote:

How do you force people to buy health insurance coverage without turning the Healthcare system into a government run socialist system(that Dick Unger favors)?

Dick Unger wrote:

What is the meaning of the word "socialism" that the right wing seems to have resurrected to describe anything they don't' favor?

"FORCING" everyone to buy health insurance whether they want to or not, and whether they can afford it or not, or is it simply making universal health insurance one of our constitutional rights to life and economic freedom?

If "health insurance" existed in 1776, our forefathers would have simply included it in the Constitution along with roads and military service, police and military protection I'd bet. It's exactly the same kind of thing, it benefits everyone, whether they get sick or no. Just like communications, transportation and safety of person and commerce.

Dick Unger wrote:

or is it simply making universal health insurance one of our constitutional rights to life and economic freedom?

Dick Unger wrote:

It works because it's not really private,

jdege wrote:

Dick Unger wrote:

It works because it's not really private,

It did work, when it was private. As it has become less private, it has worked less well. The parts that work least well are the parts that have been least private.

Dick Unger wrote:

Sorry for the rant, but that's the reason we are moving to a one party system. :cry:

One day it'll be over, just like the American automotive industry.

Dick Unger wrote:

And those who scream "socialism" have no understanding of the system they defend, much less any constructive plan. :evil:

Sorry for the rant, but that's the reason we are moving to a one party system. :cry:

One day it'll be over, just like the American automotive industry.

Author:	aypstony [ Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Time to start paying taxes on health insurance premiums?
IMHO, the following steps are necessary to get "everyone" covered for health insurance. 1) It should be state law that requires everyone to buy health insurance. Just like it is required to have automobile insurance. Violators should be fined and/or put in jail. 2) Healthcare premiums should be based on risks, just like auto insurance. If you participate in risky health behavior(ie smoke, overweight..so on) your premiums should be higher than others. Exclude genetics based risk...since this is a slippery slope. 3) We should have 2 major choices of health plans. 1) a comprehensive plan(covers health maintenance visits). 2) minimum coverage(covers only major health events) health maintenance visits are out of pocket. 4) Some sort of committee(with representatives from government, doctors, and insurance companies) should set a pricing standard for basic medical services. For example, a doctor's visit should not cost $200 at one clinic and $400 at another clinic. FYI, I am a firm believer in free market practices....so this one is a tough sell. 5) People should be able to purchase Health plans from any company across the US. Just some ideas.....feel free to blast them

Author:	princewally [ Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Time to start paying taxes on health insurance premiums?
#1. There should be a law against people saying 'there should be a law'. That's people thinking they know how to run the lives of other people, which is terribly offensive to any freedom-loving person. #4. A government committee, or even a government sponsored committee deciding pricing is polar opposite of "free market". Which mutually exclusive idea am I supposed to blast? Now, the pricing standard: If a clinic does all of their labwork on site, to speed the process, I'm not going to be allowed to pay extra for the convenience? A hospital that invests in state-of-the-art equipment won't be allowed to recoup the costs? Forced pricing standards will be the death of medical innovation. #5. Absolutely, get the government restrictions out of the equation. aypstony wrote: IMHO, the following steps are necessary to get "everyone" covered for health insurance. 1) It should be state law that requires everyone to buy health insurance. Just like it is required to have automobile insurance. Violators should be fined and/or put in jail. 2) Healthcare premiums should be based on risks, just like auto insurance. If you participate in risky health behavior(ie smoke, overweight..so on) your premiums should be higher than others. Exclude genetics based risk...since this is a slippery slope. 3) We should have 2 major choices of health plans. 1) a comprehensive plan(covers health maintenance visits). 2) minimum coverage(covers only major health events) health maintenance visits are out of pocket. 4) Some sort of committee(with representatives from government, doctors, and insurance companies) should set a pricing standard for basic medical services. For example, a doctor's visit should not cost $200 at one clinic and $400 at another clinic. FYI, I am a firm believer in free market practices....so this one is a tough sell. 5) People should be able to purchase Health plans from any company across the US. Just some ideas.....feel free to blast them

Author:	Dick Unger [ Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Time to start paying taxes on health insurance premiums?
Since EVERBODY needs health insurance, and no one is denied care, there is no economic reson for ANYONE to pay a specific health insurance premium. It's just like taxes but without the flexablity. It's just like roads or police or military services. The people who can afford to pay taxes, do. For everyone.

Author:	aypstony [ Wed Jun 17, 2009 2:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Time to start paying taxes on health insurance premiums?
princewally wrote: #1. There should be a law against people saying 'there should be a law'. That's people thinking they know how to run the lives of other people, which is terribly offensive to any freedom-loving person. #4. A government committee, or even a government sponsored committee deciding pricing is polar opposite of "free market". Which mutually exclusive idea am I supposed to blast? Now, the pricing standard: If a clinic does all of their labwork on site, to speed the process, I'm not going to be allowed to pay extra for the convenience? A hospital that invests in state-of-the-art equipment won't be allowed to recoup the costs? Forced pricing standards will be the death of medical innovation. #5. Absolutely, get the government restrictions out of the equation. aypstony wrote: IMHO, the following steps are necessary to get "everyone" covered for health insurance. 1) It should be state law that requires everyone to buy health insurance. Just like it is required to have automobile insurance. Violators should be fined and/or put in jail. 2) Healthcare premiums should be based on risks, just like auto insurance. If you participate in risky health behavior(ie smoke, overweight..so on) your premiums should be higher than others. Exclude genetics based risk...since this is a slippery slope. 3) We should have 2 major choices of health plans. 1) a comprehensive plan(covers health maintenance visits). 2) minimum coverage(covers only major health events) health maintenance visits are out of pocket. 4) Some sort of committee(with representatives from government, doctors, and insurance companies) should set a pricing standard for basic medical services. For example, a doctor's visit should not cost $200 at one clinic and $400 at another clinic. FYI, I am a firm believer in free market practices....so this one is a tough sell. 5) People should be able to purchase Health plans from any company across the US. Just some ideas.....feel free to blast them Don't get me wrong, I am in favor of preserving the current free market healthcare system. The problem is that many people would rather buy a Cadilac Escallade than purchase reasonable health insurance for their family. How do you force people to buy health insurance coverage without turning the Healthcare system into a government run socialist system(that Dick Unger favors)?

Author:	princewally [ Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Time to start paying taxes on health insurance premiums?
aypstony wrote: How do you force people to buy health insurance coverage without turning the Healthcare system into a government run socialist system(that Dick Unger favors)? Easy, while you've get them in, take a kidney as payment. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tmLvzubP3I

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Author:	Dick Unger [ Thu Jun 18, 2009 6:23 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Time to start paying taxes on health insurance premiums?
What is the meaning of the word "socialism" that the right wing seems to have resurrected to describe anything they don't' favor? "FORCING" everyone to buy health insurance whether they want to or not, and whether they can afford it or not, or is it simply making universal health insurance one of our constitutional rights to life and economic freedom? If "health insurance" existed in 1776, our forefathers would have simply included it in the Constitution along with roads and military service, police and military protection I'd bet. It's exactly the same kind of thing, it benefits everyone, whether they get sick or no. Just like communications, transportation and safety of person and commerce.

Author:	aypstony [ Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Time to start paying taxes on health insurance premiums?
Dick Unger wrote: What is the meaning of the word "socialism" that the right wing seems to have resurrected to describe anything they don't' favor? "FORCING" everyone to buy health insurance whether they want to or not, and whether they can afford it or not, or is it simply making universal health insurance one of our constitutional rights to life and economic freedom? If "health insurance" existed in 1776, our forefathers would have simply included it in the Constitution along with roads and military service, police and military protection I'd bet. It's exactly the same kind of thing, it benefits everyone, whether they get sick or no. Just like communications, transportation and safety of person and commerce. Socialism: Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy. Healthcare, though primitive, did exist at the time. And it was provided and paid for like any other service. The forefathers would NOT have put their faith in a government run institution like healthcare. To invoke the forefathers of this country to backup the idea of government controlled healthcare is laughable at best. "[Some] seem to think that [civilization's] advance has brought on too complicated a state of society, and that we should gain in happiness by treading back our steps a little way. I think, myself, that we have more machinery of government than is necessary, too many parasites living on the labor of the industrious. I believe it might be much simplified to the relief of those who maintain it." --Thomas Jefferson "A noiseless course, not meddling with the affairs of others, unattractive of notice, is a mark that society is going on in happiness. If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them, they must become happy." --Thomas Jefferson "With all [our] blessings, what more is necessary to make us a happy and a prosperous people? Still one thing more, fellow citizens--a wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government, and this is necessary to close the circle of our felicities." --Thomas Jefferson

Author:	Mattxd [ Thu Jun 18, 2009 8:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Time to start paying taxes on health insurance premiums?
aypstony thanks that was much better the rant I was working on.

Author:	jdege [ Thu Jun 18, 2009 8:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Time to start paying taxes on health insurance premiums?
Dick Unger wrote: or is it simply making universal health insurance one of our constitutional rights to life and economic freedom? Health insurance is not a right, and cannot be a right, and the only reason that anyone even conceives of discussing it as if it were a right is because we've been inflicted with centuries of attempts by the statists to degrade the word into meaninglessness. If your "right" requires someone else to work for you, you're confused about what a right is. Let's put it simply. No man can have a right to the product of another man's labor. You have a right to your life, and to your liberty, and to your own property. You do not have a right to anyone else's life, liberty, or property, or to even the smallest proportion thereof.

Author:	Dick Unger [ Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Time to start paying taxes on health insurance premiums?
America is the only modern country in the world which hangs on to a myth of private health care despite the absurd economic pretensions required to perpetuate it. It works because it's not really private, instead we put up with a chaotic payment plan which provides for public assistance, corporate largess and/or extortion and bad debts intentionally incurred. And the private money "paid" is sheltered from income taxes by the payor! Real private stuff! It's all public anyway, and the price is supported by Medicare contracts! Free enterprise with no possible negotiation. Sorry, but there's already nothing private about it.

Author:	aypstony [ Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Time to start paying taxes on health insurance premiums?
Many years ago, everyone used to call this the "Land of Opportunity". Based on the entitlement mentality of so many people, they now call it the "Land of Free Sh!t" How things have changed.

Author:	jdege [ Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:05 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Time to start paying taxes on health insurance premiums?
Dick Unger wrote: It works because it's not really private, It did work, when it was private. As it has become less private, it has worked less well. The parts that work least well are the parts that have been least private.

Author:	Dick Unger [ Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:44 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Time to start paying taxes on health insurance premiums?
jdege wrote: Dick Unger wrote: It works because it's not really private, It did work, when it was private. As it has become less private, it has worked less well. The parts that work least well are the parts that have been least private. "Health care" hasn't been "private" since about 1965. That's when a doctor with a 9 month degree visited your home with a black bag containing all of his technology. There is no precedent for the modern medical industry. It's like comparing an airline to the livery barn. What we have now is a monopolistic system of multiple service providers that a patient is not even aware of, charging non-negotiable prices that cannot even be known until the service is already delivered. Although most services are available to everyone, the costs are more than 99% of the people can pay without insurance or government help. If you are successfull, you are penalized, otherwise it's free. Basically, everybody pays for everybody else, in some fashion or another. Yet if the patient pays income taxes, the cost is partially or wholly deductable. There is no fairness, and no opportunity to negotiate price or care standard, which would be basic if this was private industry. Even the people who scream "economic freedom" and "private enterprise" want to FORCE everyone to buy insurance no matter what. That's "freedom"? There is no way to go back to the horse and buggy days. It has created a system where 25% of the cost is devoted to medical providers costs to game the coding system to maximize the payout, and insurers doing the same to minimize the cost. The actual prices are fixed by Medicare! And those who scream "socialism" have no understanding of the system they defend, much less any constructive plan. Sorry for the rant, but that's the reason we are moving to a one party system. One day it'll be over, just like the American automotive industry.

Author:	mrokern [ Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:45 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Time to start paying taxes on health insurance premiums?
Dick Unger wrote: Sorry for the rant, but that's the reason we are moving to a one party system. One day it'll be over, just like the American automotive industry. Although you must admit, government intervention there hasn't exactly helped. -Mark

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Author:	aypstony [ Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:01 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Time to start paying taxes on health insurance premiums?
Dick Unger wrote: And those who scream "socialism" have no understanding of the system they defend, much less any constructive plan. Sorry for the rant, but that's the reason we are moving to a one party system. One day it'll be over, just like the American automotive industry. I wouldn't call, full government control a constructive plan. If it was up to me, I would FULLY privitize the healthcare industry(along with the public school system). Dick, your ideals are somewhat conflicted. So you believe a government controlled healthcare system is the answer. Yet, why wouldn't the same approach be used for the food industry? Hunger/malnutrition in the US is a very big problem, if the government initiated controls and provided free food for all, since eating is a "right", why wouldn't that work? A solution is only good if it can be applied to more than one similar problem. As far as I can tell, it doesn't.