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| Obamacare may kill you (if you're over 65). http://www.ellegon.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=13929 |
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| Author: | Selurcspi [ Sun Aug 23, 2009 1:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Obamacare may kill you (if you're over 65). |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x59wNGHe6iI |
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| Author: | Moby Clarke [ Sun Aug 23, 2009 4:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Obamacare may kill you (if you're over 65). |
The rub, Dick, is that the left thinks we are in crisis. The left throws out that 47m do not have insurance. So what. Are you aware that a large majority of those do not want insurance? Why should they be forced into buying something they do not want? Further, as I said before, the normal open market does not work specifically due to current government programs. How would having more government programs, based on the current model, help correct what may not even be a crisis? There are very few people who are citizens, who lack health insurance. The ER crisis is due to illegal aliens. Get rid of them and we solve a large problem in healthcare. Government is not the answer. It never has been, it never will be. It has been proven throughout history, yet the current progressive movement seems to ignore that. They seem to believe that because they have not tried all the old and tired "isms" that now those "isms" will work. That it was due to who was incharge, rather than the system used that was the problem. |
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| Author: | Dick Unger [ Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Obamacare may kill you (if you're over 65). |
Well I must represent the left. I don't know anybody or any company not at risk. The problem is so obvious, at least to me, and to most everyone i know who is reponsible for paying health insurance that i really don't know how to respond to this. It's a crisis, not an academic question. How do we work the math? In ten years most of the income of the country will go to health care. 
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| Author: | SethB [ Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Obamacare may kill you (if you're over 65). |
Moby Clarke wrote: This is where government has already caused problems. The free market would work if there was no Medicare or Medicaid. Those two bodies force everyone else to fall in line or risk losing providers. Think about it this way. If 50% of your patients have Medicare, 15% have BCBS, 12% have Healthpartners, 10% have Medicaid, 7% have Choice Plus and 5% have Aetna and the remaining 6% have other individual payers, who are you going to stay with when one of the payers says you must not charge anyone more than you charge their patients? Medicare will not let you charge any other patient, for the same service, more than Medicare has determined is the "going rate" nationwide. Really? I haven't found any evidence of that. Medicate won't let doctors charge Medicare Patients more than the Medicare amount. Do you have a pointer to a more up-to-date source than I've found? Moby Clarke wrote: Therefore, even though your costs are more than what MC allows, you can not charge anyone more. Please tell me how long a business will stay in business if it rejects 60% of it's patients? The Grateful Dead were quite profitable touring for about 35 years, and overall probably rejected a lot more than 60% of attempted ticket buyers. Many actors turn down a hell of a lot more than 60% of their potential customers (movie makers), and it doesn't hurt their careers any. There are doctors now who turn down 60% of patients (they just don't accept new patients); they stay in business. So the answer is, if the remaining 40% provide enough business, the 60% don't matter. Quote: This is what the current system has produced and why it is broken. Everyone loves to rip HMO's, but truth be told, Medicare is the biggest bully on the block and if they do not get what they want, they take their ball, and all the other balls and go home. And lots of doctors are quite happy with that. Quote: If you want rationing and wait-listing, please tell your congress people to vote for Obamacare. In my view, which comes from 11 years inside a major hospital/clinic business office, healthcare will certainly be changed forever and it will not be for the best. Given that the demand exceeds the supply, there are going to be waits and lack of services. Dirichlet's Principle says so. |
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| Author: | chunkstyle [ Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Obamacare may kill you (if you're over 65). |
Interesting article: http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200909/health-care by David Goldhill How American Health Care Killed My Father ... It's rather long, just go to the site and read it. |
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| Author: | Dick Unger [ Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Obamacare may kill you (if you're over 65). |
That's as good an analysis as I've seen. The patient is not the customer, so the customer service incentive is not present. The patients cannot afford to be the customer, however, because the cost of the care is beyond the ability of the individuals wiho need it.The market for health care services is not driven by a consumer making a decision based on desire and price. It's an economic decision based on desire and price to buy a fourwheeler, not an economic decision based on desire and price to get your cancer treatment. In fact, consumers would elect to never need healthcare. So, we are not going to ever be able to base the health care industry on pure competition, it's going to need some reglation, just like a utility company. Obamacare is not going to be the "the answer", it's another bandaid. But we have the problem, and a continuing bandaid work in progress approach is really the only option we have. "Free enterprise" has always had it's limits, at least when explained by economists instead of political idealogs. |
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| Author: | tman065 [ Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Obamacare may kill you (if you're over 65). |
Best 30 minutes I've spent reading all day! chunkstyle wrote: Interesting article: http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200909/health-care by David Goldhill How American Health Care Killed My Father ... It's rather long, just go to the site and read it. |
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| Author: | Nickel pkg [ Sat Sep 12, 2009 12:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Obamacare may kill you (if you're over 65). |
Quote: The Republicans have NO answer, no program, NOTHING except negative rhetoric. That's kind of why they lost the election. Since when is having 35 proposals nothing but negative rhetoric? "members on the Republican side have over the course of the last five months offered some 800 amendments and individual pieces of legislation to the president and to (House Speaker) Nancy (Pelosi) and Harry Reid, to say, 'Hey, this is our contribution.' Every last piece has been rejected," warning: the source is from the evil foxnews website. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/09/10/republicans-obama-heres-health-plans/ And don't forget that when Social Security hits the brick wall, some tried to fix it years ago. |
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| Author: | Traveler [ Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Obamacare may kill you (if you're over 65). |
Nickel pkg wrote: Quote: The Republicans have NO answer, no program, NOTHING except negative rhetoric. That's kind of why they lost the election. Since when is having 35 proposals nothing but negative rhetoric? "members on the Republican side have over the course of the last five months offered some 800 amendments and individual pieces of legislation to the president and to (House Speaker) Nancy (Pelosi) and Harry Reid, to say, 'Hey, this is our contribution.' Every last piece has been rejected," warning: the source is from the evil foxnews website. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/09/10/republicans-obama-heres-health-plans/ And don't forget that when Social Security hits the brick wall, some tried to fix it years ago. Please, I beg you, do not try to rebut rampant emotion with fact. Remember always that on the left, what they said, what they promised, and the positions they have taken are null and void within 5 to 10 minutes. Yes, there have been Republican healthcare reform proposals and amendments offered to the ones put forth by Democrats. However, those should never be mentioned. Ever. Oh, yes, and it's all George W. Bush's fault, and Cheney was part of a conspiracy. 
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| Author: | Q_Continuum [ Sun Sep 13, 2009 9:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Obamacare may kill you (if you're over 65). |
I agree with tman! Wonderful article, describes the real problem in a way I hadn't thought about yet. tman065 wrote: Best 30 minutes I've spent reading all day! chunkstyle wrote: Interesting article: http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200909/health-care by David Goldhill How American Health Care Killed My Father ... It's rather long, just go to the site and read it. |
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