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Pakrat
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Post subject: Glock grip angle theory Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:01 am |
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Forum Moderator/<br>AV Geek |
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Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:56 am Posts: 2422 Location: Hopkins, MN
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First let me state that I respect Glock and their guns. I even have the 26/27 on my wishlist.
Here's what I've been thinking (theory):
Police do not have a good reputation for hitting their target (unless it's on the ground ), what do you think the chance of the grip angle effecting that is? Glocks are accurate, in a range situation. But, do people have the so-called "muscle memory" to shoot Glocks accurately in a stress situation?
To me the Glock grip angle makes it more a point and shoot gun, not really to be brought all the way up to your eyeline. Like in the olden days with revolvers and cowboys shooting from the hip. When I aim a Glock, I bring it up to my line of sight, and the natural aim is high.
While I was looking for pictures to illustrate what I have to do with my wrists to aim the Glock, I noticed something. It looked almost as if the people holding the Glocks were grabbing higher on the gun, as if to make it a 'natural' angle.
Don't they look like they are gripping too high?
Picture of how I think the Glock may need to be held:
_________________ Minnesota Permit to Carry Instructor; Utah Certified CFP Instructor
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mnblaster
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Post subject: Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 2:22 pm |
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Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:03 am Posts: 36
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I agree, I have to "think" too much when I shoot a Glock. Maybe I am too used to shooting other types.
_________________ big bullet = big hole
NRA Life Member
2006 FLHRCI RoadKing
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grayskys
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Post subject: Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 2:39 pm |
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Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 10:53 pm Posts: 1725
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I learned to shoot using a single action .45 acp, the glock for me pointed a bit high because of the grip angle, but with some practice (retraining my muscles) it comes up just right.
Interestingly enough the Springfield XD has the same grip angle as a Single Action .45acp
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JCinMN
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Post subject: Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 2:57 pm |
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Senior Member |
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Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 9:12 am Posts: 126 Location: Apple Valley, MN
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I really like glocks but I noticed this as well, it seems the natural grip angle on them makes me point way high and I find it uncomfortable to point because it seems like I have to angle my wrists unnaturally low.
The XD does not seem to have that problem and points very naturally for me.
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Andrew Rothman
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Post subject: Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 3:41 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 10:24 am Posts: 6767 Location: Twin Cities
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Pakrat
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Post subject: Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 5:38 pm |
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Forum Moderator/<br>AV Geek |
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Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:56 am Posts: 2422 Location: Hopkins, MN
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This is what I mean, if you picture the web of your hand in the spot at the top of the line, it can change the angle you're holding the gun.
_________________ Minnesota Permit to Carry Instructor; Utah Certified CFP Instructor
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Andrew Rothman
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Post subject: Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 6:14 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 10:24 am Posts: 6767 Location: Twin Cities
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goalie
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Post subject: Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 7:10 pm |
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Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:48 pm Posts: 429 Location: Minnetonka
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Andrew sure shot my G17 just fine a few weeks ago.
On a serious note though, just like one needs a bow that fits them to bowhunt effectively, one needs a firearm that "fits" them as well to shoot effectively. There is no holy grail. There is no single "best" gun for everyone. Also, if you train with a Glock, you may have trouble switching platforms to something else (and vice versa), but that is true of ANY switching between firearm platforms. One of the main reasons I switched to a G26 for carry was because I shoot a G17 a lot, and I was seeing a degredation in my ability to draw and shoot fast and accurately with my 3" SP101 revolver since I was rarely shooting it anymore. Once I switched to a G26 for carry, I found that I do not have to shoot it nearly as often as the SP101 to stay proficient with it, as it is pretty much exactly the same as my G17 (that I shoot a lot), with just a slightly shorter grip (I have the Pierce extensions on).
FWIW, I have seen people who the Glock platform was an incredibly bad fit for from an ergonomic standpoint. People with small hands and really short fingers come to mind.
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goalie
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Post subject: Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 7:12 pm |
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Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:48 pm Posts: 429 Location: Minnetonka
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Pakrat wrote: This is what I mean, if you picture the web of your hand in the spot at the top of the line, it can change the angle you're holding the gun.
I found that the higher I grip a Glock, the lower the gun will point naturally for me. I use a high, thumbs-foward, crush-type grip with equal pressure from both hands.
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Pakrat
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Post subject: Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:58 pm |
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Forum Moderator/<br>AV Geek |
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Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:56 am Posts: 2422 Location: Hopkins, MN
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Andrew Rothman wrote: But I'll maintain that a higher grip is inherently better, and that good shooters do it regardless of the gun's native grip angle. I can understand that. Goalie wrote: I found that the higher I grip a Glock, the lower the gun will point naturally for me. I use a high, thumbs-foward, crush-type grip with equal pressure from both hands.
Real life confirmation.
So, to bring it back to my theory, is this why(one reason why) cops have a not-so-good reputation for hitting their targets in a stressful situation?
I suppose I should say I have no idea what it's like to hit a target under stress. This is a look into one possible reason.
Oh, any comments on the shooting from the hip style hold?
_________________ Minnesota Permit to Carry Instructor; Utah Certified CFP Instructor
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BigRedBowtie
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Post subject: Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 7:18 am |
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Journeyman Member |
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Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:57 pm Posts: 60 Location: Rosemount, MN
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Somewhat of a Rabbit-Trail follows:
In speaking with a Glock "Armorer" (regional sales rep., best I can tell) at my chiro's office one day, he asked me if I had any Glocks. (topic was... er- guns) "Nope- darn things just don't point right for me, I haven't found one I liked shooting yet"
He explained that the design of the Glock grip angle was purposely designed to roll the wrist silghtly downward, so as to line up the bones behind the first and second fingers with the bones in the forearm. This is supposed to allow a more stable platform for the weapon to recoil against, which, in turn, lends itself to better reliability and quicker recovery. He likened it to punching- and that a punch with the first two knuckles is less likely to break something than a punch on the ring and pinky knuckles.
How much truth there was in all that? I don't know, but that's what he told me. They still don't point right for me, and I still want an XD.
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Pakrat
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Post subject: Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 11:09 am |
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Forum Moderator/<br>AV Geek |
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Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:56 am Posts: 2422 Location: Hopkins, MN
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BigRedBowtie wrote: He explained that the design of the Glock grip angle was purposely designed to roll the wrist silghtly downward, so as to line up the bones behind the first and second fingers with the bones in the forearm. This is supposed to allow a more stable platform for the weapon to recoil against, which, in turn, lends itself to better reliability and quicker recovery. He likened it to punching- and that a punch with the first two knuckles is less likely to break something than a punch on the ring and pinky knuckles.
oooo, great explaination. I have not heard that one.
_________________ Minnesota Permit to Carry Instructor; Utah Certified CFP Instructor
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durbin6
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Post subject: Glock Grip angle vs Springfield XD Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 12:33 pm |
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Senior Member |
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Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 4:34 pm Posts: 216 Location: Hutchinson, MN
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Shoot a Glock , then shot an XD both from the holster, two shots COM as fast as you can. My experience has been (And this statement applies to me, not everyone) that I can shoot the XD much faster because it points more naturally. Compare the grip angle of both of them, both are designed to be held high on the grip but the XD has a steeper grip angle than the Glock.
The following is taken from Guns and Ammo:
Getting A Grip
One thing most of us look at when we choose a gun is how it feels and points, since we all have "muscle memory" from previous handgun experience. Many serious pistoleros teethed on the Colt 1911 and its grip angle is what's natural for them. It is also one of the criticisms leveled at Glock. Europeans rarely care about grip angels, since few Europeans get to handle firearms of any sort, and the makers assume that neophyte police and military trainees will adapt to whatever they're given. That's true, with reservations. Americans are different. Our legacy of a free association with firearms builds notions that are difficult to crack. Even many first-time purchasers have some shooting experience already through family and friends and, when buying the first, second or third gun, any new engineering attributes of such are weighed against the shooters' prior experience and training. Dedicated 1911 users often point a Glock skyward (and vice versa) and that makes some pause before buying. So Springfield Armory chose to build its new X-treme Duty series based on the 1911 grip angle in deference to the millions in circulation. By doing so, the company silently leaps that first sales hurdle.
_________________ JD
DDHT
Occam's Razor:
one should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything.
Visit us at www.ddht.us
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Srigs
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Post subject: Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 3:38 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 5:40 am Posts: 3752 Location: East Suburbs
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I tried shooting a Glock 19 and it points like crap for me. So, I have passed on all Glocks I have looked at. The gun must fit my hand.
_________________ Srigs
Side Guard Holsters
"If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking" - George S. Patton
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durbin6
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Post subject: Selection Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 6:43 am |
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Senior Member |
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Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 4:34 pm Posts: 216 Location: Hutchinson, MN
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I cut my teeth on a 1911 45 and still like the way it feels in my hands. It's great to have a good selection of handguns to choose from and I recommend trying out a few of them before purchasing. The last thing you want is something that "points like crap".
_________________ JD
DDHT
Occam's Razor:
one should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything.
Visit us at www.ddht.us
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