Twin Cities Carry Forum Archive
http://www.ellegon.com/forum/

Norm
http://www.ellegon.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=10282		 Page 6 of 7
Author:  Carbide Insert [ Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:48 pm ]
Post subject: 
Question:
If one does not stand on principle... upon what does one actually stand?

...A philosophical question, I suppose, though I do believe it applies in politics.
Author:  bensdad [ Fri Oct 10, 2008 2:00 pm ]
Post subject: 
I don't know what "pyhrric" means, but I don't think one term of Franken for no more Coleman is pyrrhic. I abhore his politics (Franken's) as much as any of you. I just want the bastards who thumbed their noses at us to be gone. Voting my conscience and bickering with you guys is the best I can do (in addition to writing a few letters).
Author:  SultanOfBrunei [ Fri Oct 10, 2008 2:11 pm ]
Post subject: 
bensdad wrote:
...Voting my conscience and bickering with you guys is the best I can do (in addition to writing a few letters).

Wait, when did you learn how to write??? :wink:
Author:  plblark [ Fri Oct 10, 2008 2:18 pm ]
Post subject: 
SultanOfBrunei wrote:
bensdad wrote:
...Voting my conscience and bickering with you guys is the best I can do (in addition to writing a few letters).

Wait, when did you learn how to write??? :wink:


dude, cut him some slack, he can barely type ;-)

I hear your message and it makes sense but the painful path of the greater evil SCARES me too much to avoid voting for the lesser of two evils.
Author:  Andrew Rothman [ Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:55 pm ]
Post subject: 
Carbide Insert wrote:
jaysong wrote:
When do we stand on principle?


Always.
Whether the victory is Pyhrric or not. :|


Okay, so imagine you're getting mugged (in the current political climate, we all know what that feels like, I know...). There's already a gun in your face, and it looks like the crook knows how to use it.

Do you stand on principle and go for your own weapon, knowing you'll lose the race and get shot?

Or do you take the pragmatic view that it's not worth sacrificing everything to take the moral high ground, and hand over your wallet?
Author:  bensdad [ Fri Oct 10, 2008 8:23 pm ]
Post subject: 
Um. Yeah. There were these guys once? Back in the day. I can't remember their names... Adams something, There was a Henry in there too, maybe a Payne (in the ass, to England). Anyway, they were getting mugged...
Author:  Carbide Insert [ Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:55 pm ]
Post subject: 
Andrew Rothman wrote:
Do you stand on principle and go for your own weapon, knowing you'll lose the race and get shot?

Or do you take the pragmatic view that it's not worth sacrificing everything to take the moral high ground, and hand over your wallet?


Why not do both?

<object classid="clsid:d27cdb6e-ae6d-11cf-96b8-444553540000" codebase="http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=8,0,0,0" width="1" height="1" id="AdModule" align="middle"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always" /><param name="allowFullScreen" value="false" /><param name="FlashVars" value="commId=4994579674227948"/><param name="movie" value="http://o.aolcdn.com/mediaplayer/players/fpm/AdModule.swf" /> <param name="quality" value="high" /><param name="bgcolor" value="#999999" /><embed src="http://o.aolcdn.com/mediaplayer/players/fpm/AdModule.swf" quality="high" bgcolor="#999999" FlashVars="commId=4994579674227948" width="1" height="1" name="AdModule" align="middle" allowScriptAccess="always" allowFullScreen="false" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer"></embed></object><object id="player500" codeBase="http://fpdownload.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=8,0,0,0" height="385" width="480" padding="0" classid="clsid:d27cdb6e-ae6d-11cf-96b8-444553540000" VIEWASTEXT><param name="FlashVars" value="&assetId=video:asset:pmms:2269234&playerId=player500&rvChannelFilter=AOLNull&autoplay=true&displaySearch=false&sk_color1=0x7c8992&sk_color14=0x909ba1&sk_color16=0x909ba1&sk_color17=0xcacfd2&sk_color18=0xe7e8ea&sk_color20=0xe3e3e3&displayTopCap=true&displayUtility=false&commId=4994579674227948"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="Movie" value="http://o.aolcdn.com/mediaplayer/players/fpm/fpm.swf"><param name="src" value="http://o.aolcdn.com/mediaplayer/players/fpm/fpm.swf"><param name="wmode" value="transparent" ><param name="AllowScriptAccess" value="always"><param name="AllowNetworking" value="all"><embed src="http://o.aolcdn.com/mediaplayer/players/fpm/fpm.swf" FlashVars="&assetId=video:asset:pmms:2269234&playerId=player500&rvChannelFilter=AOLNull&autoplay=true&displaySearch=false&sk_color1=0x7c8992&sk_color14=0x909ba1&sk_color16=0x909ba1&sk_color17=0xcacfd2&sk_color18=0xe7e8ea&sk_color20=0xe3e3e3&displayTopCap=true&displayUtility=false&commId=4994579674227948" quality="high" width="480" height="385" name="player500" allowScriptAccess="always" wmode="transparent" allowFullScreen="true" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" ></embed></object>

All joking aside though, are you that trusting of your life to the whim of a mugger? Are you going down without a fight, betting on the fact the said mugger won't get pissed that there is only $5 in your wallet, and take out his frustrations for you wasting his time by a few quick trigger pulls? Say, like this:

*WARNING: GRAPHIC, AND HEARTBREAKING*

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/_rR9X1IJnSg&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/_rR9X1IJnSg&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Now I can't say for certain what I would do, as each situation is unique in itself, but if it ever comes to that, my plan A is certainly not to take Johnny Law's advice and "just give them everything they want".

I don't know if we're even comparing apples to apples here with a mugging analogy, but I can't help but notice my question was not answered; I received another question in return. :wink:
Author:  DeanC [ Sat Oct 11, 2008 7:06 am ]
Post subject: 
This is pretty good: A Wasted Vote

Quote:
In the first place, a wasted vote is a vote for someone you know does not represent your own beliefs and principles. A wasted vote is a vote for someone you know will not lead the country in the way it should go. A wasted vote is a vote for the "lesser of two evils." Or, in the case of John McCain and Barack Obama, what we have is a choice between the "evil of two lessers."

Albert Einstein is credited with saying that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different result. For years now, Republicans and Democrats have been leading the country in the same basic direction: toward bigger and bigger government; more and more socialism, globalism, corporatism, and foreign interventionism; and the dismantling of constitutional liberties. Yet, voters continue to think that they are voting for "change" when they vote for a Republican or Democrat. This is truly insane!
Author:  Andrew Rothman [ Sat Oct 11, 2008 2:07 pm ]
Post subject: 
Yawn. Sure. But we have to play the card we're dealt, not the ones we'd like. Barkley won't win, but he could siphon enough votes from Coleman to get us Franken.

Such a vote might get you get a certain self-righteous "don't-blame-me" feeling...but it gets all of us Franken.
Author:  sigman [ Sat Oct 11, 2008 2:36 pm ]
Post subject: 
Andrew Rothman wrote:
Yawn. Sure. But we have to play the card we're dealt, not the ones we'd like. Barkley won't win, but he could siphon enough votes from Coleman to get us Franken.

Such a vote might get you get a certain self-righteous "don't-blame-me" feeling...but it gets all of us Franken.


+1 again
Author:  bensdad [ Sat Oct 11, 2008 3:04 pm ]
Post subject: 
Andrew Rothman wrote:
Yawn. Sure. But we have to play the card we're dealt, not the ones we'd like. Barkley won't win, but he could siphon enough votes from Coleman to get us Franken.

Such a vote might get you get a certain self-righteous "don't-blame-me" feeling...but it gets all of us Franken.


Thanks, I will have a "don't blame me" feeling. I'll have a "blame you" feeling. Norm vs. Franken... One will use his left hand to steal my money. The other will use his right. Those who support a two-party system are part of the problem. We need to change it. If not now, when? If not us, who? Minnesotans should know, better than most, that the cycle can be broken.

Check it out folks. For you Republicans, it's got all your favorite songs. For you democrats? It's got that same great taste, but with half the calories.
http://www.lpmn.org/platform.php
Author:  Andrew Rothman [ Sat Oct 11, 2008 7:27 pm ]
Post subject: 
Andrew Rothman wrote:
[W]e have to play the card we're dealt, not the ones we'd like. Barkley won't win, but he could siphon enough votes from Coleman to get us Franken.


bensdad wrote:
Those who support a two-party system are part of the problem.


"Support" ≠ "Recognize the reality of"

bensdad wrote:
If not now, when?


When it has a snowball's chance of working.

bensdad wrote:
If not us, who?


I'm good with you and me. It's the other three million voters, most of whom don't have a clue. Wishing they did won't make it so.

bensdad wrote:
Minnesotans should know, better than most, that the cycle can be broken.


Yes, with a Hollywood/WWF celebrity. Do we have one of those running? :)
Author:  Carbide Insert [ Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:18 pm ]
Post subject: 
Andrew Rothman wrote:
...he could siphon enough votes from Coleman to get us Franken.


Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary:
Siphon
Si"phon\, v. t. (Chem.) To convey, or draw off


How can votes be conveyed, or drawn off, if Coleman never had them to begin with?


Andrew Rothman wrote:
Such a vote might get you get a certain self-righteous "don't-blame-me" feeling...but it gets all of us Franken.


Nope. What gets all of us Franken is the people voting for Franken. I'm starting to feel a bit like a broken record... perhaps my statement is flawed somehow? How might I rephrase the fact that a candidate wins because of the number of people that place their votes upon said candidate? Self righteousness doesn't even enter the picture.

I should preface the following in what I'm about to say, by saying that I personally think polls are utter garbage, and are an incredibly effective propaganda tool.

Having said that, I can only assume your snowball comment has to be based on poll data? Therefore, I am wondering, according to this Google search, what your (Andrew's) definition of a "snowball's chance" would be, before you'd vote for a better choice...

In the world of politics, 43-34-18 is nothing to shake a stick at. How many people are required to back Barkley up before a snowball fight in July looks like a game you'd want to participate in?

What it seems to me, is that the Norm voters are giving it to Norm. If even half of them decided to give Barkley the nod, well...

Do you think half of Coleman's presumptive "supporters" really like him? :lol:
Author:  sigman [ Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:41 pm ]
Post subject: 
Well, I think this issue is turning into a dead horse beating. :)
Author:  bensdad [ Sun Oct 12, 2008 11:29 am ]
Post subject: 
sigman wrote:
Well, I think this issue is turning into a dead horse beating. :)


Imagine the people participating in this thread, and a slightly smaller number of Franken supporters, were going to be the only people voting in the election (for Senator). Would:

A) You Coleman folks come over to the dark side
B) Us "anything is better than FrankcoleKenman" cave in and vote the "lesser..."
C) We keep arguing, be split, and let Franken have it by default

If I thought it would help I'd beg you guys to do [what I think is] the right thing.
Page 6 of 7 All times are UTC - 6 hours
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/